Curse

Essence Snow · Sep 23, 2010, 03:16 AM // 03:16

Imma stir the pot in terms of prot.....other profs can prot far better than monks. ST rits, Imbagdons, ER eles....monks just can't prot like those. So if having anyone of those in the group there is no point in having monks go prot.

ZephyLynx · Sep 23, 2010, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Imma stir the pot in terms of prot.....other profs can prot far better than monks. ST rits, Imbagdons, ER eles....monks just can't prot like those. So if having anyone of those in the group there is no point in having monks go prot.

Healing can also be better in other professions, ER ele or Rit. With that logic, you shouldn't use monk at all.

Each profession has a draw back though:

Imba's can't really pre-prot, nor can they remove hexes/conditions. They need to be able to hit to prot (groups with lots blocking/blind/attack speed debuff.

ST rits can prot better, but minions kill spirits way to fast if you run with a mm. Also ST prot rits have pretty much no red barring at all.

ER eles are great if you can avoid enchant removal or apply covers fast enough. But again, they have little to no clean ability.

I'm not saying these professions are bad, I use them all the time, but monks have way more versatility. In a hybrid build, you can have prot, red barring, and cleaning in one skill bar. I actually prefer one of the above professions + one hybrid monk. 3 man backlines are usually not needed.

Essence Snow · Sep 23, 2010, 03:31 AM // 03:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZephyLynx

Imba's can't really pre-prot, nor can they remove hexes/conditions.

Hexbreaker Aria rocks!

Rest is all.....well one can always find faults in everything so no point in arguing much bout it.

Burst Cancel · Sep 23, 2010, 04:06 AM // 04:06

This thread contains a lot of argument without context. What mission or area are you monking in? What is the team composition? What kind of players are you playing with? Without answering all three of these questions, there's no way to argue conclusively whether any particular skill or bar is worth taking.

I've recently been PuGing zaishen missions and bounties, and I've found that players tend to be quite well-versed in meta builds. Literally every PuG I've run with has had an imbagon, and most of them also run some combination of MM, SoS, Panic, and Illusion mes. In other words, there is now such an overwhelming amount of damage mitigation in the midline that I find myself seriously questioning why groups even bother taking monks at all, nevermind two of them. In most cases, I could have gone in with nothing but LoD on my bar, because the only thing I do is mop up the minor damage that manages to make it through the layers of interrupts, minions, spirits, and shouts.

HM elite areas are a slightly different situation. Here, it seems that the primary function of the UA is actually to allow the primary monk to run dual elites via Arcane Mimicry, which grants them Infuse-like single-target heals as well as a super-powered Heal Party. Again, most of the meta builds for these areas run a ton of mid/frontline damage mitigation (imbagon, shadow form, etc.), so the monks are there solely for redbar. Frankly, I'm not convinced that teams would fare any better by running less midline damage mitigation and converting their monks from healers to hybrids. Right now, the most effective (and perhaps, the only effective) mitigation is either party-wide defense (shouts, spirits, etc.) or AoE shutdown (Panic, Ineptitude, Complicate, etc.). Strong single target prots like Spirit Bond or Prot Spirit tend to be either insufficient or unnecessary.

And contrary to popular belief, HM DoA can be done without Frostway (there are, in fact, heroway builds for HM DoA that rely on little more than an imbagon and mass interrupts) - there's just much less room for error, naturally.

ZephyLynx · Sep 23, 2010, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This thread contains a lot of argument without context. What mission or area are you monking in? What is the team composition? What kind of players are you playing with? Without answering all three of these questions, there's no way to argue conclusively whether any particular skill or bar is worth taking.

I've recently been PuGing zaishen missions and bounties, and I've found that players tend to be quite well-versed in meta builds. Literally every PuG I've run with has had an imbagon, and most of them also run some combination of MM, SoS, Panic, and Illusion mes. In other words, there is now such an overwhelming amount of damage mitigation in the midline that I find myself seriously questioning why groups even bother taking monks at all, nevermind two of them. In most cases, I could have gone in with nothing but LoD on my bar, because the only thing I do is mop up the minor damage that manages to make it through the layers of interrupts, minions, spirits, and shouts.

HM elite areas are a slightly different situation. Here, it seems that the primary function of the UA is actually to allow the primary monk to run dual elites via Arcane Mimicry, which grants them Infuse-like single-target heals as well as a super-powered Heal Party. Again, most of the meta builds for these areas run a ton of mid/frontline damage mitigation (imbagon, shadow form, etc.), so the monks are there solely for redbar. Frankly, I'm not convinced that teams would fare any better by running less midline damage mitigation and converting their monks from healers to hybrids. Right now, the most effective (and perhaps, the only effective) mitigation is either party-wide defense (shouts, spirits, etc.) or AoE shutdown (Panic, Ineptitude, Complicate, etc.). Strong single target prots like Spirit Bond or Prot Spirit tend to be either insufficient or unnecessary.

And contrary to popular belief, HM DoA can be done without Frostway (there are, in fact, heroway builds for HM DoA that rely on little more than an imbagon and mass interrupts) - there's just much less room for error, naturally.

You are right. To make a truly optimized build, you need to consider what context it is in. I was thinking more along the lines of a generalized build. I just get frustrated when i pug z-missions, any everyone thinks that HB+UA is the best suited EVERYWHERE, it's like when people thought that Barrage-Pet worked everywhere.

The use of damage mitigation with offensive skills (Weakness from Enfeebling Blood, Panic, etc...) also falls in the "prevention is better than the cure" category. When I lead a pug as a monk, I tend to only ask for an Imba or Resto/ST Prot rit. Most of the time, there is no need for 2 monks in the Z-Missions.

cellardweller · Sep 23, 2010, 10:53 AM // 10:53

I'm with the OP - WoH 4 Life. Its an on demand big heal and the rest of your bar is like SoA, PS, SH a couple of cleaners and some bar toppers.

LifeInfusion · Sep 23, 2010, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZephyLynx

You are right. To make a truly optimized build, you need to consider what context it is in. I was thinking more along the lines of a generalized build. I just get frustrated when i pug z-missions, any everyone thinks that HB+UA is the best suited EVERYWHERE, it's like when people thought that Barrage-Pet worked everywhere.

The use of damage mitigation with offensive skills (Weakness from Enfeebling Blood, Panic, etc...) also falls in the "prevention is better than the cure" category. When I lead a pug as a monk, I tend to only ask for an Imba or Resto/ST Prot rit. Most of the time, there is no need for 2 monks in the Z-Missions.

When I monk it is only for ZM HM and general Hard mode since my guild has pretty much vanished in the last 2 years due to no extra content save for War in Kryta.

P.S. The reason why I like WoH is because it doesn't require popping an enchant all the time, which makes it play like an Elementalist or Masochism/Awaken the Blood using Necro. Also doesn't need headpiece swapping like with UA. The other thing I prefer is that it doesn't overheal as much (the 109 is only <50% and an extra 73HP base heal on HB is needed to match that bonus or 135 total heal before HB ; 58 and 67 before 16DF UA, or 125HP total before 16 DF UA). However, it is lacking in the party heal department and Divine Healing/Heaven's delight (5e,1c,15r) /Breath of the Great Dwarf (10e,0.25c,15r) are on 15 cooldown.

khezial tahr · Sep 24, 2010, 01:01 AM // 01:01

No build is going to cover all bases. You only have 8 slots to prepare and some situations limit even that. Personally, my go-to build is a WoH hybrid. Mostly I'm spamming prots and covering with the heals. The bar's versatility is great, and easily tweaked for specific situations.

I ran with a UA hybrid build for a while. And while UA is great for bar compression (UA is a heal boost. It's telerez. It's a heal boost and a telerez!), I agree that it's not maximized on a hybrid bar. It's a good skill though. I stopped running it when I realized that I was not able to keep parties alive as well as I could with other bars. Friends of mine play UA hybrid and love it. Personally, I feel pulled in too many directions when I use it.

Why do PUGS demand it and HB? Because they are simple builds that only an idiot could screw up.

Chthon · Sep 25, 2010, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

And contrary to popular belief, HM DoA can be done without Frostway (there are, in fact, heroway builds for HM DoA that rely on little more than an imbagon and mass interrupts) - there's just much less room for error, naturally.

I did not mean to imply that by any means. I happen to think Glaiveway is awful and Frostway is bad. They're just popular.

Lanier · Sep 25, 2010, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by khezial tahr

Why do PUGS demand it and HB? Because they are simple builds that only an idiot could screw up.

... but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily the best choice. I pretty much always prefer running a ZB, LoD, or WoH hybrid because those work a lot better... I don't understand why pugs insist on running a simple/kind of good build when I would rather run a slightly-less-symple/slightly better build.

Xenomortis · Sep 25, 2010, 03:14 PM // 15:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I don't understand why pugs insist on running a simple/kind of good build when I would rather run a slightly-less-symple/slightly better build.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...7&postcount=92

You maximise your chances for success if you give the unknown qauntity (the monk) a build that's effective enough to complete the area but has the lowest requirement in player ability possible.

Burst Cancel · Sep 25, 2010, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

a ZB, LoD, or WoH hybrid because those work a lot better...

This is generally false in the current PuG meta.

maxxfury · Sep 25, 2010, 04:50 PM // 16:50

pug meta = the simplest crap the most brain dead player should be able to run with the highest chance of not failing...

pug meta=/= best option...

Burst Cancel · Sep 25, 2010, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

pug meta = the simplest crap the most brain dead player should be able to run with the highest chance of not failing...

pug meta=/= best option...

You completely missed the point.

As a monk, whether my teammates are running optimal bars is largely irrelevant, if for no other reason than that I don't have control over their bars anyway. The only question for me, then, is given what my teammates are running, what is the best build for me to bring? In a meta where every team has SoS rits, imbagons, and Panic mesmers, the best build for a monk is generally not a WoH hybrid. In fact, as I stated above, I suspect that most teams would be better off not bringing a monk at all.

LifeInfusion · Sep 25, 2010, 06:43 PM // 18:43

I PUGed for one of the HM places on my monk today. Why do people expect that a UA monk is a god of res or something? It's on 10 cooldown and it is earshot. If you are 2 aggro bubbles away it's impossible for to a. res you B. heal you c. prot you.

There's no substitute for damage mitigation in the midline. When I was playing on my elementalist and necro with miss hexes/weakness and blind things went faster than on my monk.

X CDH X · Sep 26, 2010, 11:11 PM // 23:11

Lol outside a speed clear area with a spike team UA is kinda useless............

Well to compare UA and HB I much prefer HB - both do similar amount of healing with + 50% bonus for HB and 50-60% for UA though HB imo is overall better as it has several advantages. Similar amount of healing amount but having the 1/2 cast on every spell is quite a big advantage and also no -1 energy regen.

With taking HB you can lower Divine Favor so can boost Protection attribute so can take prot spirit for example - with UA can't unless want lower healing bonuses.

Personally I think the best general Monk bar is WoH Hybrid bar with Patient Spirit, Protective Spirit and Aegis.

Where the main advantage of UA being the super quick res - the point of monking is to keep the team alive at least in a reasonable situation so I'd rather stop the big damage rather than have to spam heals with UA bar that has zero prot to keep people alive.

Though I would agree with some people that if there is a lot of mid line damage reduction - ie Save Yourselves then pretty much anything would work lol but thats not always the case

khezial tahr · Sep 28, 2010, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

... but that doesn't mean that they are necessarily the best choice. I pretty much always prefer running a ZB, LoD, or WoH hybrid because those work a lot better... I don't understand why pugs insist on running a simple/kind of good build when I would rather run a slightly-less-symple/slightly better build.

Never said they were the best, only that they were effective and simple. So simple that any idiot could do. Like Xeno said, a simple and effective build improves the odds for the team to succeed. Same reason a lot of overpowered builds get used, because anyone can do it well (not that these are overpowered, just an example).

I prefer hybrid bars myself, using WoH mostly, but I have swapped around for PnH, ZB and a few others occasionally. For me, the flexibility of hybrid builds beats all (aside from some specialty builds for elite areas).

dark4190 · Sep 28, 2010, 05:43 PM // 17:43

I've always been an HB monk with 1 prot skill on my bar: Protective Spirit.

Of course, due to player's requests, I've adopted a UA build. The problem I have with UA is that I don't have my 50% faster cast time and I'm losing that one pip of energy. Add mindbender you say? It's a 1s cast time and isn't maintainable, plus! another 5e that I have to sacrifice. I will give it credit where credit is due: Instant Res, 5e cast, 1/4 cast time, Can res two people at a time (cancel maintained UA, recast, cancel that UA)

I'd never even considering using WoH over HB. Those who do choose WoH, likely don't have NF.

LoD? Alright. It's an awesome skill, but I'd much rather equip HB and spend 15 energy casting Glyph of Lesser(5e), Heal Party(5e), Heal Party(5e)

If no one dies, Healer's Boon is the best! BUT! What if someone dies?

Healer's Boon may not have an "instant res", but don't forget that all healing spell cast 50% faster. Here are 3 Resurrection skills in the Healing Prayers attribute along with their cast time: Restore Life(4sec), Renew Life(4sec), Resurrection Chant(6sec).
I dislike the first two for their "touch" range. I always run with Res Chant, just due to it's half-range. Consider that someone just died there.. I don't want to be standing directly on top of them. I can res someone in 3 seconds using Res Chant and 2 seconds with the other two skills.

In no way does HB out-perform in the Resurrection category, however I believe that the 50% cast time increase and the 50% heal increase, along with the 5 energy for 45sec, will help me to better keep people alive.

PS. "Each 'pip' indicates 1 point of energy recovery every 3 seconds"
Therefore, the 5 energy for HB will be recovered in 15 seconds. It lasts 45+ seconds.
UA? It's losing you 1/4 of your energy constantly.

Lanier · Sep 28, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by dark4190

I've always been an HB monk with 1 prot skill on my bar: Protective Spirit.

Of course, due to player's requests, I've adopted a UA build. The problem I have with UA is that I don't have my 50% faster cast time and I'm losing that one pip of energy. Add mindbender you say? It's a 1s cast time and isn't maintainable, plus! another 5e that I have to sacrifice. I will give it credit where credit is due: Instant Res, 5e cast, 1/4 cast time, Can res two people at a time (cancel maintained UA, recast, cancel that UA)

I'd never even considering using WoH over HB. Those who do choose WoH, likely don't have NF.

LoD? Alright. It's an awesome skill, but I'd much rather equip HB and spend 15 energy casting Glyph of Lesser(5e), Heal Party(5e), Heal Party(5e)

If no one dies, Healer's Boon is the best! BUT! What if someone dies?

Healer's Boon may not have an "instant res", but don't forget that all healing spell cast 50% faster. Here are 3 Resurrection skills in the Healing Prayers attribute along with their cast time: Restore Life(4sec), Renew Life(4sec), Resurrection Chant(6sec).
I dislike the first two for their "touch" range. I always run with Res Chant, just due to it's half-range. Consider that someone just died there.. I don't want to be standing directly on top of them. I can res someone in 3 seconds using Res Chant and 2 seconds with the other two skills.

In no way does HB out-perform in the Resurrection category, however I believe that the 50% cast time increase and the 50% heal increase, along with the 5 energy for 45sec, will help me to better keep people alive.

PS. "Each 'pip' indicates 1 point of energy recovery every 3 seconds"
Therefore, the 5 energy for HB will be recovered in 15 seconds. It lasts 45+ seconds.
UA? It's losing you 1/4 of your energy constantly.

I agree with you that HB is better than UA. It is the monk's job to keep the party alive, not to rez, and HB completely outclasses UA in the "keeping people alive" area. However, I am pretty sure that most of the people here who choose WoH over HB do have NF. I have NF and I choose WoH (or ZB or LoD or a prot/removal elite depending on the area). What I like about Hybrid bars is their versatility. Having all of the prots (I typically bring PS, SoA, and Aegis or guardian) makes up in a big way for the healing lost by not using HB to boost your Dwana's Kiss or Patient Spirit (or ethereal light depending on what skills you use). WoH/ZB have enough of a spike heal that all you are really missing by not taking HB is the extra healing on the secondary heal(s) chosen. I guess there is also the extra 50% casting time but that isn't very noticeable unless running Healing seed (which typically there isn't room for in hybrid bars), heal party, or ethereal light. Having all the prots though can really reduce a ton of damage and therefore help you passively maintain your energy a lot better. Its a pretty win/win situation IMO.

By the way, I hate it when people try to compare LoD to HB + heal party + gole. They can't really be compared since LoD is just one skill while the second option is three skills. and LoD can be used every 6 second while the HB + Heal party + gole can only be used every 30 seconds (unless you want to demolish your energy). Im not trying to say that LoD is better than than HB, Im just saying that these two options can't really be compared since they are very different and are used in different situations.

X CDH X · Sep 29, 2010, 03:26 PM // 15:26

LoD is not awesome now - it completely fails.......

They should up the healing slightly (IN PVE) to about 75-80 for 14 Healing so there is another top quality Monk elite.

I like to try out random Monk bars and have experimented with the nerfed LoD and it really isn't good now. HB outperforms now it in my opinion.

I like the elite though being that you can pretty much customise the rest of your bar with Protection skills - if desired. There used to be a Mesmer/Monk smite bar that looked pretty effective in GvG so more choice of elite is better.

No idea if they will 'un-nerf' it though for PvE as GW 1 is pretty much dead now. Would be good though if they did to break the monopoly of nubs using UA everytime..............